Episode Transcript
[00:00:08] Welcome back to the stimulating stuff podcast. I'm your host, Rich Vogel, and I'm in my prime, baby. That's right, I'm looking good, feeling good. I'm sharp as a tack. I have life by the reins, and I'm full speed ahead. I want to spend all of our time together talking about me and how great I am. And that's the subject of today's episode. Narcissism.
[00:00:32] This is one of several topics that I want to cover in the realm of psychology, and I'm going to cover them over time. But narcissism's up first. Before we get to that, though, I've been thinking, what's up with Google? Has anyone noticed recently that Google sucks after they adopted the AIH, I can't find anything I'm looking for. Top search results are often irrelevant, and they pull information from random sources, often incorrect information, and from invalid sources. Finding information has become far more tedious. Here's a prediction. So we all know Google is everywhere. It's many people's default search engine. It's a worldwide household name. It's a noun and a verb. But I predict these recent changes will start to drive away their users like me. I'm ready to jump ship.
[00:01:27] I'd love to hear about your experiences. Has anyone converted to alternative search platforms? Personally, I'm looking at Duckduckgo, but I haven't pulled the trigger yet. Send me an email and let me know what you're doing.
[00:01:39] Alright, that rant is over. So on to the next one. Today's topic, narcissism. Let's begin here.
[00:01:47] What is up with Boomers? I'm talking about Baby Boomers, folks born between 1946 and 1964. Have you noticed a large segment of this generation just won't quit? What do I mean by that? Well, according to current labor statistics, more than 30% of baby boomers in the US remain active in the labor force past the age of 65. Compare this to the two previous generations before them, where less than 20% worked past retirement age. In 2018, the labor participation rate for women aged 65 to 72 was 25%, and of men in the same age group, it was 35%. Economists expected the United States to actually face a labor crunch in the 2010s as more and more baby boomers retired. But interestingly, that didn't happen.
[00:02:48] They actually create a significant labor surplus, making it even more difficult for people to find jobs. And while working into these later years, their primary focus has been to transfer wealth from younger people to themselves.
[00:03:06] This is the first time in us history that the 30 year old age group is worse off economically than the previous generation was at the same age. And economists are all pointing to the fact that boomers in politics, in boardrooms, in executive leadership positions, are robbing the younger generations of the opportunity to achieve the same levels of economic success that they enjoyed. It's like climbing up a ladder, getting to the top, and then throwing the ladder down to the ground so no one else can climb beyond that. Have you noticed part of the reason boomers stick around in the workforce beyond retirement age is a lack of trust in Gen Xers like me, as well as millennials and Gen Zers, all three of which are now in the workforce.
[00:04:00] Boomers feel like they know better, like we're all incompetent and the workforce can't possibly function without them. Them, it's all about maintaining power, control, and grasping at threads of relevance at the expense of their own children, grandchildren, and future generations.
[00:04:20] It's what I like to call generational narcissism.
[00:04:25] Now, this is all coming to mind primarily because of our presidential race and the news surrounding it over the past couple of months. But I believe all this talk about age and cognitive decline, about the presidential candidates, is actually just a microcosm of a larger issue in our society.
[00:04:46] Now, before I move on to the next step and get people upset about my insensitivity, I have to say something. I'm going to talk about both presidential candidates very briefly before I move on to the larger topic about narcissism as a personality trait and a personality disorder.
[00:05:07] In preparing for this episode, I developed my talking points several weeks ago. And I happened to be recording this episode on July 15, a Monday, just two days after the horrific events that unfolded in western Pennsylvania. And I realized the timing of what I'm about to say isn't great. But I also don't want to discard my notes and research. And I don't mean to insult anyone. I'm just pointing out some objective statistics that are publicly available.
[00:05:36] So, with that being said, let's talk about our presidential candidates for a second. And I'm using them as stick figures for an issue of generational narcissism, mostly because they're both well known throughout the world. So here are some stats about our current candidates.
[00:05:53] Donald Trump is a baby boomer. He was born in 1946, at the very beginning of the baby boomer generation. He is 78 years old. According to actuarial tables provided by the Social Security Administration, he has a 27% chance of dying of natural causes during the next four years. 27%.
[00:06:16] Joe Biden is not a baby boomer. He's part of the previous generation called the silent generation, which is composed of people born between 1928 and 1945. He was born just four years before Trump in 1942, at the very end of this silent generation timeframe. So Biden is 81 years old, and he has a 36% chance of dying, again, natural causes during the next four years. 36%.
[00:06:49] So let's just take the average. If you take the average and say whoever takes office has a 33% chance of dying during their terminal. And again, talking about natural causes here, the outlook isn't good. Now, you could argue, well, they have a 67% chance of living. Really? Is that the bar we set for the leader of the free world? I don't know about you, but if someone told me that I had a 33% chance of dying in the next four years, I definitely wouldn't spend those years working.
[00:07:22] Shit, I would be L-I-V-I-N. You know what I'm talking about?
[00:07:27] God, you know, I feel a little bit icky, and I'm sorry I had to talk about dying after what just happened, but that's not really the point. The point is that a shockingly high number of people in that generation, that age group, presidential candidates included, continue to work well past normal retirement age because they seem to have this need to maintain power, control, and influence during their sunset years, when they could be enjoying retirement and all that comes with it. Since it's been in the news, let's briefly touch on the topic of mental capacity.
[00:08:06] According to a 2020 study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, or PNAs, humans tend to reach their peak mental abilities around age 35 and then begin to decline after age 45. However, different mental abilities peak in different ages. So, for example, short term memory peaks in early adulthood and begins to decline around age 35.
[00:08:30] Emotional understanding peaks in middle to late adulthood and really in the forties and fifties. Vocabulary continues to increase into the sixties and peaks in the mid sixties. And basic math like subtraction and division peaks around age 50. Now, remember, these are peaks, which means these functions begin to decline after that peak. Now, there's no real consensus in the literature regarding when cognitive decline begins, and there are significant differences between individuals and a plethora of other variables to consider. But you know what peaks in your late seventies and early eighties? Your probability of death. It just does. Call me ageist if you want, but I totally agree with Scott Galloway, who always says, you know what else is ageist? Biology.
[00:09:27] There's something about this generation, though. They seem to have no desire to cement their legacy in their fifties and sixties and then retire at a normal age to enjoy a peaceful life, surrounded by family and friends and devoting their time to rewarding activities like travel, woodworking, knitting, pickleball, or standing on the corner in 95 degree weather. Like this septuagenarian that I saw the other day with a giant sign hanging off his back that read, Pope Francis is the Antichrist, the Catholic Church is Babylon, mother of harlots and abomination of earth. Revelations 17 five. Let's talk about it. I thought to myself, there's a guy who's doing what he loves in retirement, preaching the good word. But there's a significant subset of boomers who seem to want to work until they die. The White House, Congress, Supreme Court, boardrooms, they're full of them, refusing to step away from the spotlight in some obvious, desperate attempt to stay relevant at the expense of younger generations and at the expense of their own reputation and legacy. Sadly, they seem unable to recognize the loss of their own relevance, pressing on as if they have the same skills and reputation as they did 20 years ago. And I'm not just talking about presidential candidates here. Think about it. I'm sure you know someone in this age group who just won't quit. Everyone around them is thinking it, maybe even saying it. Time to hang it up, dude. We got this. But they just can't walk away from having control. The narcissism is so prevalent in this generation, it's shocking. And that's what I want to talk about today. Narcissism. It's an interesting topic, a term that gets thrown around often, maybe too often. It's something that's not fully understood and in some circumstances, arguably the most dangerous personality type you can encounter in life. So what exactly is narcism? Well, the word is derived from an ancient roman story told by Ovid about a man named Narcissus and a mountain nymph named Echo. So Echo is this beautiful woman living in the mountains who pissed off the goddess Juno, and she gets cursed with the inability to initiate a spoken sentence on her own. Instead, she's only able to finish other people's sentences or to repeat the last words she heard. That's where we get the term echo. So Echo is hanging out in the mountains, like mountain nymphs do, and she spots a handsome man named Narcissus who was out hunting with his friends. Echo immediately falls in love with him. She becomes infatuated and follows him around.
[00:12:36] So during this hunt, Narcissus he gets separated from his buddies, and he's there by himself in the woods. And he calls out, is anyone there? And he hears the nymph repeat the words back, is anyone there?
[00:12:49] Narcissus answers the voice. Come here. He says, only to hear the same. Come here.
[00:12:56] So when Narcissus sees that nobody comes, he concludes that the owner of this other voice must be running away from him. So he calls out again, this way. We must come together.
[00:13:10] Echo heard this and thought this was a reciprocation of her love. So she runs to Narcissus, ready to throw her arms around her beloved. But Narcissus was appalled by this action. He shuns her and yells, hands off. May I die before you. Enjoy my body. And of course, Echo could only whisper in reply, enjoy my body.
[00:13:37] She felt scorned, humiliated, and ashamed, so she ran away.
[00:13:42] Now, Echo had some mountain nymph friends, right? And when they saw this, they prayed to the gods to punish Narcissus for his behavior with a love that was equally not reciprocated. So the gods caused Narcissus to fall in love with his own reflection. So one day he looked down at his reflection in a pool of water, and he became mesmerized, unable to take his eyes away from this beautiful person that he didn't even recognize was himself. And ultimately, as a result of his own love and admiration for himself, unable to look away from his own image, even to eat or drink, he wasted away and died. So this is obviously a cautionary tale for both echoists and narcissists not to become obsessed with themselves or others.
[00:14:36] Anyway, back to the question of what exactly is narcissism?
[00:14:41] At the most basic level, narcissism is selfishness, self admiration, a need for admiration from others, a sense of entitlement, and low empathy, all of which are rooted in a deep seated, often unconscious feeling of shame and security.
[00:15:04] Beyond that, you can think about it two ways. First, there's narcissism as a personality style. Just like agreeableness or introversion are personality styles.
[00:15:17] And with all personality styles, there's a spectrum.
[00:15:22] So on this particular spectrum, in the middle is what I like to call the Goldilocks place. You have a healthy level of self esteem, empathy for others, and humility. Someone who falls in this middle point of the spectrum may be called an empath, who genuinely feel others emotions and connections and connects with them in a meaningful way.
[00:15:49] On the other end of the spectrum, from the narcissistic end, you have the echoist, someone who has a fear driven tendency to prioritize others needs over their own, so they tend to suppress their own desires, often echoing others desires instead. That's why I told you the story about narcissist and echo the mountain nymph. See what I did there? Anyway, on the absolute extreme other end of the spectrum from echoism is a clinical diagnosis called narcissistic personality disorder, or NPD, which has an ICD-10 code and is formally defined in the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual of Mental Disorders of the American Psychiatric Association. So just to package this and reiterate a bit, you have narcissism as a personality style which is sort of right of center on this spectrum that I talked about, and it can be mild, medium, or excessive. And then at the extreme end of it, on the very end of this spectrum, you have narcissism. That is a clinical diagnosis.
[00:17:00] So according to that Diagnostic and Statistic Manual, Narcissistic Personality dDsorder is defined as a pervasive pattern of nine criteria, five of which must be present for a diagnosis. So clinical features have to include at least five of the following, and I'm going to read all nine. So one, having a grandiose sense of importance, of self importance, such as exaggerating achievements and talents expecting to be recognized as superior two, preoccupation with fantasies of success, power, beauty, and or idealization three, belief in being special and that they can only be understood by or associated with other high status people four, demanding excessive admiration five, sense of entitlement six, exploitation behaviors seven, lack of empathy eight, envy towards others or a belief that others are envious of them and nine, arrogant, haughty behaviors and attitudes.
[00:18:07] Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder may not recognize their illness because it's generally egosyntonic, meaning that the behavior is really in harmony with their needs and goals. So they typically don't end up in therapy unless they're forced to. And of course, of course, once diagnosed, they're likely to discontinue the therapy because the very diagnosis is contrary to their own views of themselves, their own self importance, entitlement, greatness, need for admiration, and self idealization.
[00:18:44] But just to be clear, I'm not a licensed clinical psychologist, so I'm not going to talk about narcissistic personality disorder. Instead, I'm going to talk about the narcissistic personality style and aspects of that style. And ultimately the narcissists among us.
[00:19:06] These are people who are narcissistic on that end of the spectrum, but maybe not on the absolute extreme end.
[00:19:14] They definitely have a maladaptive personality style. They're often self absorbed, vain, and outwardly expressive about their self importance. They're awful to be around, either because their incessant hubris is annoying as shit, or because they seem to do everything in their power to marginalize people, damage their reputation, or even destroy their careers. And they seem to have no clue because no one in their right mind would dare challenge a narcissist.
[00:19:47] That's who I'm talking about today. They're easily diagnosed as assholes because there's no ICD-10 code for being an asshole, so you don't need a license to recognize an asshole. But none of us are licensed psychologists, and we're not in a position to diagnose these people with narcissistic personality disorder. But we damn sure know these people. These narcissists among us are the goddamn worst. And diagnosis or not, there's definitely something seriously wrong with them.
[00:20:19] Okay, so generally speaking, there are three major types or categories of narcissism. Some have argued that there are more, and they're not mutually exclusive. So someone can demonstrate multiple attributes across categories. And even if there are six or more different categories, I'm going to talk about three today.
[00:20:41] The first type is called grandiose narcissism. These are people who brag and bluster constantly because deep down inside, unconsciously, even, they feel insecure. These folks tend to be flashy, sometimes showing off with expensive cars, clothes, and homes. They're boastful, frequently bragging about their accomplishments. Whether true or not, they're inauthentic with compliments, quick to anger when contradicted or disagreed with. They expect special treatment or consideration, and they tend to cling to their views or opinions, even when there's plenty of evidence against them. They never shut up about how great they are, except when it comes to smearing other people, particularly behind their backs. And if you know one, they probably say negative things about people you both know all the time. They do what I like to call creating reputational distance. They try to make themselves look better by smearing other people by making everyone else look worse.
[00:21:47] The second type of narcissism is called covert. It's also known as vulnerable narcissism, and this is a more introverted form. These people may experience similar insecurities as grandiose narcissists, but they tend to internalize their self importance and may have a strong need for attention.
[00:22:08] They may also have a public image that's different from their private behavior. These folks are hypersensitive to criticism or rejection. They become emotionally distant when there's risk of their flaws being exposed. They have difficulty building and maintaining meaningful relationships at work, and they're so passive aggressive, even being extremely strategic, such as launching smear campaigns against you well in advance to lay a foundation for. For a defense or an attack down the line.
[00:22:44] Finally, the third type that I want to talk about is the malignant narcissist. So these are people who have no problem destroying your life by lying and spreading false information.
[00:22:54] They also create that reputational distance that I talked about, but they tend to use, abuse and discard people. They're obsessed with power and control. Everything is personal to them. They hold grudges and take revenge. Nothing is ever their fault, so you won't hear them apologize unless it suits their needs. They can be strategic and ruthless in pursuit of what they want. They have enemies and may not even know they have enemies because people will pretend to be their friend out of fear or pity or a keep your enemies closer mentality, and they mask their insecurities and low self esteem well, often behind a facade of arrogance or grandiosity. Malignant narcissists tend to display paranoid traits, meaning they tend to lead with emotion, make wild assumptions, and think people are acting to harm them. They hold grudges, and they can be aggressive, emotionally and or verbally. Other characteristics may include low empathy, a need for power, and a sense of importance. That grandiosity that just jumps out in conversation as they repeatedly redirect back to themselves, tell stories about their past accomplishments, and position themselves as the most important, knowledgeable, and or relevant person in the room.
[00:24:23] When challenged or belittled, they can go into a fit of rage and in extreme circumstances, may go so far as to physically harm or violate the rights of others, which is often referred to as antisocial features. Just remember, someone doesn't need to show all of the traits that I just mentioned to fall into that category. For example, not all grandiose narcissists have fancy cars, and not all malignant narcissists resort to physical violence.
[00:24:53] That's quite rare. So these characteristics are not mutually exclusive, and someone can show traits or characteristics across those categories.
[00:25:03] Narcissists tend to come off as terribly immature from an emotional perspective, and they are emotionally immature. They have little ability to control their emotions, will flip emotions on a dime, and will pout like a child. They tend to retaliate, manipulate, inflict harm in various ways, particularly emotional or psychological harm. And they're often totally blind to their actions or the repercussions of their actions. They may even lack memory of doing it, not understand their impact, or be indifferent to the damage they cause. Oftentimes, their words or actions can come off as intentional gaslighting. You cannot meaningfully communicate or negotiate with a narcissist like you would a rational adult because their emotional immaturity makes them irrational and in some ways, unpredictable.
[00:26:01] Narcissists are definitely afraid of powerful or influential people. So they'll talk shit about them and do things to marginalize their power and influence.
[00:26:12] They don't like other people having the spotlight, and they have a fear of being abandoned or exposed as a fraud. They act on this fear by attacking, smearing, marginalizing, undermining. They also prey upon people without power, people with leaky boundaries, and those who don't stand up for themselves. But narcissists will try to destroy people of power and influence to undermine their credibility and make themselves look better or position themselves as the better, more knowledgeable go to resource.
[00:26:49] Now, I mentioned before that narcissists tend to lack empathy, but they're really good at what's called performative empathy. So they'll go out of their way to do things that seem really nice, but it only serves to put on a show for an audience.
[00:27:05] For example, they'll give gifts, attend to someone who's dying, offer to assist with something, but they only do it to get attention, brand themselves as a good person and or make themselves look good or make others look bad. It gets them the validation and admiration they need.
[00:27:29] Also, they may say, oh, wow, it's terrible to hear that that person's sick. That's so sad. It must be so difficult for you. They may even start a Gofundme or some sort of fund for that sick person. But dive a little deeper in that conversation and try to talk to the narcissist about how sad you are about that person's illness, how much it's affecting you, and they'll tune out immediately. It's more emotional need than they can handle giving you. And assuming they start that fund to help that sick person, they'll use that to brag about the fact that they started the fund, and they'll hold that over everyone's head at some point, even the sick person.
[00:28:22] So, you know, imagine it's a co worker. They may say to that person, you're asking for a raise. What do you mean? You're a hard worker and you've never received a raise. You think I don't support you? Remember when I started that fund for you all those years ago when you were sick.
[00:28:41] I'm the most supportive person in the world. I always go out of my way for other people. I started a fund just for you. I've never done that for anyone else. And now you want to raise.
[00:28:54] One thing narcissists love is hierarchies. They love systems like patriarchy, authoritarianism, dictatorships, you know, basically autocracies. And that includes hierarchical corporate structures. In these systems, one person gets the final say, and it's usually the narcissist, not because they're a good person, but just because. Deal with it. And that person is usually, as I said, the narcissist. Now, the narcissist in chief may say things like, I want you to own this project. Take it and run with it, but make any moves without their permission, gain any knowledge you don't immediately share with them, and they lose their shit. The need to maintain power, control and influence is pathological.
[00:29:48] Working with a narcissist can be extremely difficult and even damaging, frankly. They can be like a Jekyll and hyde type of person.
[00:29:57] So on the one hand, when they feel safe, it might be one of the most engaging, exhilarating, charismatic, charming experiences you've ever had. You may feel like they've hung the moon and the stars for you, because when a narcissist needs something from you, you're their central focus, and they'll go out of their way to make you feel amazing to get what they want from you. On the other hand, in times when the narcissist feels unsafe, challenged, or bored, they can be very disagreeable, antagonistic, childish, mercilessly attacking people. They'll undermine, marginalize, pout, cry, pound on the desk, rage, anything to attract attention, look good, or simply get their way. And for the recipient of these attacks or the bystander of these circumstances, they may spend all of their time trying to get back to that hung the moon and the stars kind of moment. And it becomes. It ultimately ends up becoming this emotional push pull that can be extremely damaging. And when the narcissist, particularly in a position of power, when they can't exercise any control over you, if they can't successfully marginalize you, knock you down, if they no longer have a use for you, or if you outshine them in any way, then they're done with you. That's it. You're out. So what causes all of this? Well, at the very core of narcissism is a deep insecurity, which is super interesting, because these people, these narcissists they actually believe their own hype. They create this grandiosity and destroy people around them, ultimately to create almost a suit of armor around that unprocessed insecurity. The narcissistic person is always fighting a battle against shame, and the shame is at an unconscious level, combined with fear that people are going to see that they ain't all that.
[00:32:23] So if anything even pokes them, if you cut them off in conversation, belittle them, make a joke at their expense, anything even remotely like that, they lash out to maintain that dominance. Ultimately, what motivates the narcissistic person is power, dominance, and control, because all of those things keep them safe. If they're in control, if they're the boss, if they have all the money, then they feel okay, all the power, whatever the fame, whatever it looks like, then they are okay. That's narcissism in a nutshell, and it's all rooted in a deepen unconscious feeling of insecurity and shame.
[00:33:16] So how do you work with a narcissist or interact with them if they're a family member? Well, the first thing to remember is you're not going to change them. It's even questionable if intensive long term therapy can move the needle. The second thing to remember, and this is super, super important, never ever call out a narcissist. So never tell a narcissist that they're a narcissist.
[00:33:46] Third, never insult them, push back against them, challenge them, or try to negotiate with them. It's a losing battle that will only provoke them to go to any extent to destroy your reputation, credibility, even your employment and or career.
[00:34:03] If you have, for example, a boss as a narcissist, I say create as much distance as possible, even if that means leaving your position, leaving your department or the company. If you can seriously get as far away from that person as you can. If you can't, your other alternative is essentially to take advantage of their weakness, manipulate them, uh, to win their favor by feeding their ego or being the proverbial yes man.
[00:34:38] Either way, that can be exhausting. And not everyone has the energy to play the game or assume a passive, deferential role and constantly essentially kiss ass.
[00:34:55] I know I'm not. Also, what if you adopt the quote unquote yes man mentality and say yes to things that go against your core values or put your reputation at risk?
[00:35:08] So you have to be very strategic in making these decisions about how you're going to interact with a narcissist.
[00:35:15] What about when the narcissist is a family member or friend, well, they're going to try to rope you oftentimes into a game of back and forth like tennis. So imagine you call your mom, for example, who you know to be a narcissist, and the first thing she says is, haven't heard from you in a long time. The last thing you want to say is, well, the phone works both ways, because then you're creating this, this back and forth, and it allows them to start to create chaos and to attack you. That's a challenge. And that insult will set them off. Instead, you should say something like, no, you haven't, and then move on to a different topic, but leave it at that. What you've done is essentially taken away that volley. As a famous psychologist once said, they're trying to play tennis and you need to play solitaire. The bottom line is this, regardless of how you know the person, whether it's a workmate, a family member or a friend, you don't want to shun them, challenge them, provoke them, or feed their need for causing chaos. Keep it high level, keep it friendly, and keep your distance to the extent you can. If you find yourself in need of doing any of those things, the shunning, the challenging, etcetera, because you're defending what's really important to you, even if done for good reasons and in a kind way, just be ready for the blowback. But it's good to assess your needs first and have a solid understanding of what you're defending or supporting and why. Because a narcissist's actions will often leave you feeling a tremendous sense of guilt, like you did something wrong for following what you know is best. And the reason is because the narcissist, particularly if you are around them all the time, they will train you over time to believe that not doing something that that person wants is wrong. That's why you feel guilt.
[00:37:24] And this is a big thing, because your interactions with a narcissist will leave you wondering what you did wrong. They'll leave you with this sense of guilt. It's a byproduct of the power that they exerted and the emotional rollercoaster that they try to keep you on. Remember, don't feel guilty. You didn't do anything wrong.
[00:37:46] Now, you may think these approaches lack empathy and compassion for this narcissist who is afflicted with a deep rooted unconscious sense of shame and insecurity. I don't necessarily agree. Having empathy and compassion doesn't mean it that you hang around and be someone else's emotional punching bag. Having empathy and compassion means that you can gracefully step away and protect yourself. And even if they're raging at you, you don't need to get in the mud with them because you at least recognize that they're experiencing pain and lashing out. But you don't have to stick around and take it on the chin over and over. Doing so makes you their prisoner. So let me bring this whole thing back full circle. This is an episode about narcissism. What narcissism is, what it looks like, and a little about how to deal with it, which can be extraordinarily difficult or impossible for some people. The main thing is to recognize the signs. Try to create distance. Protect yourself, protect your loved ones, and protect your mental health. And don't blame yourself for any chaos they cause in your life.
[00:39:02] I said earlier that a segment of the baby boomer generation and their unwillingness to retire and hand over the reins to the next generation is a sign of what I call generational narcissism. I picked on a few politicians as examples, as stick figures, but this trend is observed in all branches of government, both sides of the aisle, in boardrooms, c suites, and all other positions of power. These people don't need to work to pay the bills. They work to maintain that power, that control, that influence, even while losing their pep, even when surrounded by highly competent people who can easily run the show, even at the expense of the company or government they run, even at the expense of a well deserved retirement filled with everything from travel to knitting to woodwork to pickleball. Just standing on a corner with that giant sign and preaching the good word. They just can't fathom the world functioning without them. And that's who I'm talking about, the narcissists among us. All right, that's it for today. I hope you enjoyed this topic. I would love to hear from you, hear your thoughts, your experience. Thank you for listening. Please continue sharing this podcast on social Zen through word of mouth and send me your comments, insights, or questions to stimulatingstuffpodcastmail.com. i always love hearing from you. I'm rich Vogel and that was stimulating stuff.
