[00:00:08] Welcome back to the Stimulating stuff podcast. You like that Philly accent podcast? I'm your host, Rich Vogel, and today I'm going to revisit the topic of psychology.
[00:00:20] You may remember my last foray into psychology was the episode on narcissism. And by the way, it was pointed out to me that when I was telling the story of Narcissus (nar-SI-ses), I guess I was pronouncing his name, "NAR-si-ses."
[00:00:34] What do you want from me? I went to public school. At least I pronounced "Echo" correctly.
[00:00:39] So, what would you say if I told you that over 85% of Fortune 500 companies, the government, public schools, private schools, universities, and life coaches everywhere, are using a test to make important decisions about their organizations, decisions that impact everything from the stock market to your odds of landing a job? You'd probably have pretty high standards for that test, right? Yeah, me, too.
[00:01:16] So, what if I also told you that this test is marketed to them as a, quote unquote, personality test or personality inventory, but in reality, the test, it was developed as a parlor game, like trivial pursuit or chutes and ladders, and has absolutely no clinical or scientific merit or evidence of support.
[00:01:43] What would you say if I told you these organizations make assumptions about your abilities, make hiring decisions, and even provide career guidance based on the results of this test, which is really one of the greatest scams ever pulled on the entire infrastructure of the United States?
[00:02:06] You'd think it was crazy, right? Well, it is crazy, but it's also true. And the test is none other than the Myers Briggs personality type indicator, or the MBTI. And that is the topic of today's episode. So here's a little known fact about me. In the time between finishing my master's degree and starting a PhD program, I worked in a neuroscience lab studying memory in normal aging and Alzheimer's disease.
[00:02:41] I was really privileged to gain extraordinary experiences during that time, and one of them was learning to read mris. I spent many months sitting with radiologists learning the ins and outs. Then I did research in which I would locate and compute the volume of different parts of the brain involved in memory, like the hippocampus, enterhinocortex, and cerebellum.
[00:03:06] The other great experience was learning to administer neuropsych tests. And these are tests that are used to measure certain psychological functions that are known to be linked to particular brain structures or pathways.
[00:03:21] Those functions include things like intelligence, memory, language, visuospatial abilities, and various other functions. And you could sort of group within those types of tests, personality tests. Now, formally, there's a big difference between neuropsych tests and psychological tests, but I'm not going to get into that here anyway. So I learned a lot about neuropsych testing, including the truly nuanced art of administering and scoring these tests, and also gained appreciation for tests that are both valid and reliable. What do I mean by that?
[00:04:04] Well, validity refers to the extent to which a test really measures what it's supposed to measure. And reliability refers to the extent to which a test results can be reproduced from one setting to the next.
[00:04:21] And I mention this because the Myers Briggs type indicator, which I'm going to call the MBTI from now on, is marketed as a personality test, but it fails to meet these two basic standards.
[00:04:36] And I mentioned before that it's used by Fortune 500 companies, government agencies, schools, and even career coaches.
[00:04:45] But you know who doesn't use this test?
[00:04:49] Reputable psychologists. And that says a lot, doesn't it? So I'm going to talk about the Myers Briggs today. I might call it that. I might call it the MBTI, but I'm going to talk about its origin story, how it works. Current uses, frequency, popularity criticisms, which, let's face it, are so damning, I think you'll walk away from this episode knowing the cold, hard truth that the Myers Briggs test is a scam.
[00:05:15] So let's start here. We live in an era where self awareness and personal development have really become central themes in both personal and professional life, right? And because of this, personality tests have really gained significant popularity.
[00:05:34] These tools are designed to help individuals better understand their own behaviors, preferences and tendencies. And the MBTI certainly stands out as one of the most widely recognized and utilized. With its roots in early psychological theories and its broad application across different sectors, the MBTI has carved out a unique place in popular culture.
[00:05:58] The MBTI actually has a fascinating origin story, and the foundation can be traced back to Carl Jung's theory of psychological types, which he first introduced in his 1921 book of the same name, psychological Types. And Jung proposed that human behavior is not random, but it follows patterns that can be classified into distinct types. And he identified three key dichotomies that can be used to define human personality. The first one is extraversion versus introversion. The second is sensing versus intuition. And the third is thinking versus feeling. These dimensions reflect where individuals focus their attention, how they perceive the world, and how they make decisions.
[00:06:59] So along comes a writer, Katherine Briggs, who has zero training in psychology. And there's nothing exceptional about Katherine except the fact that she became fascinated with Jung's ideas Briggs had always been interested in human behavior, and aren't we all right? And she'd been developing her own theories before discovering Jung's work.
[00:07:28] And her daughter, Isabella Briggs Myers, shared her interest and eventually took over her mother's work. And together they aimed to create a practical tool that could make Jung's theory accessible to the general public, especially in understanding and improving personal relationships and interpersonal relationships.
[00:07:50] The motivations were different for mother and for daughter, though. So Katherine Briggs, the mother, she's born in 1875.
[00:08:00] When she really starts investigating psychological type at the beginning of the 20th century. She's interested mostly in figuring out and labeling her son in law.
[00:08:14] Later, she becomes interested in psychology as a child rearing tool.
[00:08:20] She wants to know how you can essentially classify or label your children very early in life and figure out what they should specialize in.
[00:08:33] She thought that it was really valuable for parents because you wouldn't push your children to do things that they didn't innately prefer to do.
[00:08:44] She viewed it as a tool for early childhood education and essentially assigning children to neat little classification boxes to push them in the right career direction at an early age. So the daughter, Isabel Briggs Myers, she's Catherine's daughter, she inherits this way of thinking about type from her mother in the 1940s. Now, around the same time, and we're talking during World War Two here, she sees the rise of all these new, quote, unquote, personality tests that are supposed to match workers to jobs that are best suited to them. And she takes issue with many of these tests because they divide workers into good workers and bad workers, or workers who have a normal personality and workers with an abnormal personality. Word has it that she thinks, what if I devise an indicator in which all types are created equal and each type had their place in the world, and this indicator would help sort people into the jobs that were right for them and by people. Really what we're talking about here is women devising a test so that their male bosses could figure out how best to utilize them during the wartime economy.
[00:10:09] In other words, they're trying to sell this test while making the claim that they could help determine what women would be best in which jobs.
[00:10:21] Excuse me for a second. Barbie. Barbie, just get in the box.
[00:10:27] Barbie. Back in the box. Thank you.
[00:10:31] Sorry. Where was I?
[00:10:33] Oh, right. So around 1943, Isabel Briggs Myers was working in Philadelphia, my hometown. What? What? So she's working in Philadelphia with a management consulting firm, and she starts selling these indicators to their biggest clients, which are GE, standard Oil, and New York life insurance. Company and others. So these companies are all using it to interview job candidates. And remember, this is a test that was designed to understand a son in law. It was not a test that was designed with any scientific investigation or merit.
[00:11:18] So they're using this test to interview job candidates. And get this, the insurance companies are using it to figure out if they should charge certain people with certain personality profiles higher premiums for their life insurance. Fun stuff, right? So it's mostly just these individual corporations in the beginning. But everything changed in the 1980s when its popularity exploded. So it's in the 1980s that management consultancies big Wall street firms. They're placing an emphasis on people's personalities, and they're talking about marketing yourself in certain ways. The type indicator, it then explodes as this tool for marketing oneself.
[00:12:07] So by the 1980s, the MBTI had become one of the most widely used personality assessments in the world, with applications ranging from career counseling to team building exercises in corporate settings.
[00:12:23] The MBTI's growth was also facilitated by the rise of the self help movement, which emphasized personal growth and self understanding. Today, the MBTI is available in over 20 languages, and it's used by millions of people worldwide. The test is even so popular that people put the results of their test on their social media and dating profiles. In fact, if you go to the website for the MBTI and you look at the leaders of the organization, they all have their scores below their names, too. Personally, I've been forced to take the MBTI in those corporate team building exercises, and I've personally taken it over the past few months during this job search process in various applications. And what's interesting is that the results are super easy to fake. All you really need to know is what the person or group administering the test is looking for. I mean, each question is basically a dichotomy. And we'll get this in a second. You get a yes or a no, or you get a this or a that, and you figure out pretty quickly. Okay, is this asking me if I'm an extrovert or an introverted? Is it asking me if I'm sensing or feeling? Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. So let's talk about how the MBTI works. Maybe that'll help out a little bit. It's based on four dichotomies, and each represents a spectrum between two opposing preferences. These dichotomies, they combine to create 16 distinct personality types, each with its own unique characteristics. So let's talk about the four dichotomies. The first one is. And some of these are going to be similar to what we described with Jung, but with a twist. So the first one is extroversion versus introversion, and that describes where individuals essentially focus their energy and attention. Extroverts get energized by interacting with the external world, while introverts are more focused on their internal thoughts and reflections.
[00:14:44] I know that's not perfectly accurate, but I'm trying to keep it high level. Okay. The second dichotomy is sensing versus intuition, and this pertains to how individuals gather information. Sensors prefer to focus on concrete, factual information gathered from their five senses, whereas intuitive individuals look for patterns and possibilities, often relying on their gut feelings. The third dichotomy is thinking versus feeling, and this describes how individuals make decisions. Thinkers prioritize logic and objective criteria, while feelers are more likely to consider personal values and the impact of decisions on others. And then the fourth dichotomy is judging versus perceiving.
[00:15:32] This describes how individuals approach the external world. Those who prefer judging, like structure and order, making decisions quickly and sticking to plans. Perceivers, on the other hand, are more flexible and spontaneous, preferring to keep their options open. So when these four dichotomies are combined, they form, as I said before, 16 different personality types, each identified by a four letter code.
[00:16:01] For example, when you take this test, you could be classified as an ENFP, which stands for extroverted, intuitive, feeling perceiving person.
[00:16:16] Or you could, as another example, be an ISTJ, an introverted, sensing thinking judging person.
[00:16:25] And each type is associated with certain traits, strengths and potential challenges, purporting to offer a comprehensive view of an individual's personality. So when you take this test in one of those corporate team building exercises, right, and you get your four letters, then you're going to get this pre packaged description about you.
[00:16:54] Oh, and one thing I forgot to tell you is that the MBTI is typically administered through a self report questionnaire consisting of multiple choice questions, and they're designed to identify an individual's preferences across those four dichotomies. So it can be taken in various formats, there's online versions, and, you know, in my experience, I think it takes about 20 to 30 minutes to complete. But then, once completed, you receive your four letter personality type along with a detailed report that interprets the results.
[00:17:27] The interpretation that you get in that report, it focuses on helping you to understand your natural preferences rather than measuring abilities or predicting behavior.
[00:17:43] This makes the MBTI distinct from other personality assessments, such as those that measure traits on a continuum.
[00:17:51] For example, rather than suggesting that someone is 50% extrovert and 50% introvert. The MBTI identifies whether they naturally prefer extroversion or introversion. That's what it says it does anyway, and it forces you into that dichotomy. And while the test makers acknowledge that individuals can exhibit behaviors from both ends of the spectrum in different situations, that little morsel of fact, by the way, fact is often lost on the people who interpret the results. Why? Because they're trained to look for letter combinations and not to understand the extraordinarily complex dynamics of human behavior and personality. Okay, I digress. Sorry, not sorry. Nevertheless, the makers of the test argue that its utility lies in its ability to offer insights into how individuals perceive the world and make decisions which can be valuable in both personal and professional contexts.
[00:18:59] By understanding their personality type, the makers argue, individuals can make more informed choices about their careers, relationships, and personal growth strategies.
[00:19:13] I might agree with that. Just the idea that by understanding yourself more, you can make more informed decisions. But if the understanding of one's personality type wasn't derived from an 80 year old scam.
[00:19:28] Sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's talk about how the MBTI is used today in a little more depth. So, according to their website, the makers website, it's used by companies like Microsoft, Ford, FedEx, the US army, and Cornell University, among many others. Their annual revenues are estimated to be in the realm of $65 million. They claim 88% of Fortune 500 companies use it, and it's used in over 115 countries.
[00:20:04] Well, there's no doubt the test has found widespread application in various fields, from personal development to organizational management.
[00:20:14] One of the most common uses of the MBTI is in career counseling. By identifying an individual's personality type, counselors help clients choose careers that align with their natural preferences and strengths. So, for example, an individual with an ISTJ personality type, so introverted, sensing, thinking, judging. The ISTJ is known for being detail oriented and practical, and this person might be well suited for a career in accounting or engineering. Off you go, Barbie. Back in a box. In the corporate world, the MBTI is frequently used for team building and leadership development.
[00:21:04] Organizations often use the test to help employees better understand their own work styles and those of their colleagues. This understanding can improve communication, reduce conflicts, and even enhance collaboration within teams. So, for example, knowing that a colleague is an ENFP, extroverted, intuitive, feeling perceiving person, someone who apparently values creativity and flexibility, is supposed to help a team leader adjust their approach to better engage that individual in projects that require innovative thinking.
[00:21:47] Leadership development programs also use the MBTI to help managers understand their leadership style and how it might affect their interactions with different team members in ENTJ.
[00:22:03] So extroverted sensing thinking judging person might naturally take charge and make decisions quickly, but understanding this preference is supposed to help them learn to be more patient and considerative team members who may need more time to process information and contribute their ideas.
[00:22:25] The MBTI is also widely used in educational settings. Teachers and counselors often use the MBTI to help students understand their learning styles and preferences. For example, the ESFJ extraverted sensing feeling judging studenthood, who is typically organized and enjoys structured environments, might thrive in a classroom setting that offers clear guidelines and expectations.
[00:22:55] Educators believe understanding these preferences can help them tailor their teaching strategies to better meet the needs of individual students.
[00:23:04] Beyond these formal applications, the MBTI has also become a popular tool in the realm of personal development.
[00:23:13] Many individuals use the MBTI to gain insights into their own behaviors, strengths, and challenges, often seeking to improve their personal relationships and achieve greater self awareness.
[00:23:29] The presence in popular culture has grown significantly, too. There's numerous books, articles, online communities dedicated to exploring the nuances of the 16 personality types. Websites and social media platforms offer MBTI related content ranging from memes and humor to in depth discussions about how different personality types interact in various contexts, from romantic relationships to workplace dynamics. Hey, if it smells a lot like astrology, trust your instincts. The MBTIs widespread use and its ability to resonate with people on a personal level have made it a fixture in discussions about personality and self understanding. But its popularity also appropriately raises questions about the test scientific validity and the appropriateness of its use in certain contexts, particularly in making significant decisions about hiring, promotions, and other areas where a more rigorous assessment might be necessary.
[00:24:40] So let's talk about those criticisms. By the way, there's a lot of people out there that are going to be angry about this, because I've met some people who love this test. They really believe in it. They swear by their assessment and their four letter personality type that they've been assigned, and I've been told, you'll have to take it from my cold, dead hands. Look, if you love it, great. I love lots of games, but just know it's not valid anyway. Getting ahead of myself again. Okay, criticisms one of the most significant critiques concerns the validity and reliability that I mentioned earlier.
[00:25:26] Many psychologists argue that the test lacks the rigorous empirical support that is typically required for psychological assessments. Studies have shown that the MBTI does not consistently predict behavior or outcomes in the same way that other validated personality assessments do. I'll get more into that in a second. But another major criticism is related to its binary nature.
[00:25:57] It's the barbie in the box thing, right? The MBTI forces individuals into one of two categories for each dichotomy, right? Either extroversion or introversion, which really oversimplifies the complexity of human personality. Who among you believes yourself to be that simple that you can just be put in a box?
[00:26:23] Not me.
[00:26:25] Critics argue that personality traits exist on a continuum and most people exhibit behaviors from both ends of each dichotomy depending on the context. For example, someone might be predominantly introverted but still enjoy socializing in small groups, a nuance that the MBTI does not fully capture.
[00:26:49] And I talked about this a couple of episodes ago when I was discussing public speaking. I mentioned that I tended to be extroverted at conferences, enjoying being around people. I like parties and other social gatherings, and in other circumstances I prefer to be alone with my thoughts.
[00:27:09] People are dynamic and these characteristics change with context even from one day to the next. And that's a big problem. So what if I take the test one day when I'm feeling very introverted, sensing, thinking, judging. And that's exactly the opposite of what my boss was hoping to see in order to give me a promotion. I could just as well take the test a few days later and show that I'm extroverted, intuitive thinking and perceiving.
[00:27:41] And its not just me. Research has shown that individuals MBTI results can change when they retake the test, suggesting tests may not consistently measure stable personality results. This inconsistency calls into question the tests effectiveness in providing accurate and reliable insights into an individuals personality.
[00:28:06] Another point of criticism is the MBTI's use in hiring and other decision making processes. So while the test was not originally intended for use in employment selection, remember it was intended to figure out this lady's son in law who I would love to meet by the way. She went really out of her way to figure out this dude and I feel like she should have just sat down and had a conversation with them anyway. So it wasn't designed for employment selection, but some organizations have used it in this way and that has led to people raising many justifiable ethical concerns. Critics argue that using the test and hiring decisions can lead to discrimination and may result in unsuitable candidates being selected or rejected based on their personality type rather than their skills or qualifications. And by the way, it's not their personality type, it is a game they are using to make this decision and it's only telling you how that person is feeling in that moment when they're taking the test.
[00:29:15] So the ethical implications of using a non scientifically validated test to make important decisions about individuals careers have sparked debate about the appropriate use of the MBTI.
[00:29:29] Additionally, some critics take issue with the commercial aspect of the MBTI. The test is often marketed as a definitive tool for understanding personality, leading to commodification of personality that may oversimplify or misrepresent the complexities of human behavior. The popularity of the MBTI, fueled by aggressive marketing and the rise of the self help industry, has led many to question whether its widespread use is more a result of effective branding and marketing than of its actual utility or scientific grounding. Despite these criticisms, the MBTI continues to be widely used and remains popular among many individuals and organizations. So if you're going to stick your neck out there and criticize it, just be aware that people will say to you from my cold, dead hands.
[00:30:31] The test's promise of providing a framework for understanding oneself and others has certainly ensured its enduring appeal, even in light of it lacking even a shred of empirical supporting evidence. So the criticisms underscore the importance of using the MBTI with caution, recognizing its limitations. Or better yet, don't use it at all because the Myers Briggs test is a scam.
[00:31:03] But if you're going to use it, gather some friends around the table.
[00:31:08] Get some chips, dip, soda, whatever it is you do when you're normally playing something like cards, trivial pursuit. And you break out the MBTI. Have fun with it, but don't take it seriously.
[00:31:23] Okay, that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. I love it when I see you sharing this podcast on socials and through word of mouth. Keep up the good work. In the meantime, please continue sending your comments, insights, and thought provoking questions to
[email protected]. You know I always love hearing from you. I'm Rich Vogel, and that was stimulating stuff.
